Owner-reported complaints naming the electrical system, filed with NHTSA
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Reports naming the electrical system — wiring, battery, charging, control modules, infotainment and electrical accessories. Every record below is an owner-reported complaint about the 2008 Chrysler Sebring Conv submitted to NHTSA — not a confirmed defect, not a recall and not a manufacturer bulletin. 33 reports on file name it.
Complaints are reports submitted by owners and drivers to NHTSA. They are not verified and do not establish that a defect exists.
The 25 most recent of 33, in the owner's own words
WHILE DRIVING THE DASHBOARD LIGHTS FLICKERED THEN WENT OUT, MY CONVERTIBLE TOP HAS A MALFUNCTION AND WILL NOT OPEN AND THE DOOR LOCKS UNLOCK AND LOCK ON THEIR OWN.
I WAS DRIVING HOME FROM WORK AND THE HORN BEGAN CHIRPING RANDOMLY OVER THE COURSE OF ABOUT 30 MINUTES. AFTER 30 MINUTES OF RANDOM "CHIRPS" THE HORN ENGAGED AND DID NOT STOP. THIS WAS WHILE I WAS DRIVING DOWN THE INTERSTATE. I PULLED OFF THE ROAD AND TURNED THE CAR OFF. THE HORN STILL BLEW. I OPENED UP THE ENGINE COMPARTMENT AND TAPPED THE FUSE BOX/RELAYS AND THE HORN STOPPED. I'VE READ ONLINE THAT MULTIPLE OTHERS HAVE HAD THIS ISSUE AND I WOULD LIKE THE NHTSA TO INVESTIGATE. THIS POSES A SIGNIFICANT SAFETY RISK FOR MYSELF AND THOSE AROUND ME. ALSO, THE HORN NO LONGER WORKS FROM THE STEERING WHEEL WHEN DEPRESSED.
WHEN MAKING A LEFT HAND TURN CAR QUIT RUNNING AND TURNED OFF
I BOUGHT THIS VEHICLE AS IS IN FEBRUARY OF THIS YEAR. THE CONVERTIBLE TOP GETS STUCK IN THE UP POSITION AND DOESN'T GO BACK DOWN. I CANNOT SEE OTU OF THE REAR VIEW AND OBVIOUSLY CANNOT OPERATE THE VEHICLE SAFELY. I CONTACTED A DEALERSHIP AND CHRYSLER AND BOTH TOLD ME THE RECALL HAD BEEN ADDRESSED IN 2008 (THEY LLOOKED IT UP BY VIN). HOWEVER, IT OBVIOUSLY WASN'T SINCE THE TOP IS STILL STICKING. THEY BASICALLY TOLD ME TOO BAD. HOWEVER, THEY WERE UNABLE TO TELL ME WHICH DEALERSHIP HAD MARKED IT AS A COMPLETED AND REPAIRED RECALL WHICH IS STRANGE. I WOULD LIKE IT FIXED ASAP SINCE I CANNOT OPERATE THE VEHICLE WITHOUT BEING ABLE TO SEE OUT THE REAR WINDSHIELD! IT WAS IN A PARKING LOT WHEN THIS HAPPENED.
THE CAR WILL REV AT A STOP LIGHT AND OCCASIONALLY SHUT DOWN. PERIODICALLY, THE VEHICLE WILL NOT START AFTER A FEW HOURS OF DRIVING REQUIRING A JUMP START WE HAVE REPLACED THE BRAKE SWITCH SEVERAL TIMES AND THE CRUISE CONTROL WILL NOT WORK
TAKATA RECALL, THE TIRE PRESSURE LIGHT HAS BEEN ON FOR SOME TIME NOW AND AS RECENTLY AS LAST MONTH MY SERVICE ENGINE LIGHT CAME ON REQUIRING ME TO CHANGE THE CRANKSHAFT POSITION SENSOR. LAST WEEK MY STEREO WAS SHORTED OUT AND MY CRUISE CONTROL NO LONGER WORKS AND ONLY MY HIGH BEAMS ARE WORKING. TODAY MY CAR WOULD NOT START AND I TOOK IT TO DEALERSHIP BECAUSE WHEN I TRIED TO START IT THE DASH FLASHED AS IF IT SHORTED OUT AND COME TO FIND OUT MY BATTERY WAS DEAD DRAINED FOR SOME REASON. THERE HAS ALSO BEEN A COUPLE OCCASIONS WHEN MY CONVERTIBLE TOP GOT STUCK IN OPEN POSITION AND WOULD NOT GO DOWN. I HAD TO WAIT ABOUT 5 MINUTES BEFORE RESTARTING CAR TO GET TOP TO CLOSE ALL THE WAY DOWN. THE CAR WAS PARKED WHEN OPENING AND CLOSING TOP. THE TIRE PRESSURE ICON IS STILL SHOWING ON DASH BOARD.
ON MAY 20, 2017 DRIVING ON INTERSTATE 70-80 MPH; RED LIGHTNING BOLT DASH WARNING LIGHT CAME ON. MY CAR SEEMED TO PULL BACK AND HESITATE. IT WAS DRIVING AS IF IT MAY CUT OFF. I DROVE INTO RIGHT LANE AND DROPPED SPEED TO ABOUT 55 MPH. I DID NOT STOP BECAUSE IT WAS NIGHT AND I AM A SENIOR WOMAN DRIVING ALONE ON A ROUTE I'D NEVER DRIVEN. THE CAR WOULD PULSATE AND RUN UNSTEADY WHEN IDLING A STOPS. I MADE IT HOME, TURNED CAR BACK ON AND LIGHT WENT OFF. I WENT ONLINE AND LOOKED UP THE RED LIGHT ICON AND IT SAID "ETC ELECTRONIC THROTTLE CONTROL. THIS IS A SERIOUS PROBLEM. NOW I'M AFRAID TO DRIVE THE CAR; ESPECIALLY ON THE HIGHWAYS AND INTERSTATES. ON PREVIOUS OCCASION ON A HIGHWAY DOING 60 MPH OR SO; CAR ACCELERATED AND WOULD NOT SLOW UP UNTIL IT DECIDED TO. I HAD NO CONTROL ABOUT 30- 40 SECONDS. THANK GOD I DID NOT PANIC AND DID NOT CRASH. I REPORTED TO MECHANIC AT DEALERSHIP WHERE I PURCHASED CAR. THEY SAID THEY HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING WHAT HAPPENED UNLESS I HAPPENED AGAIN. ALSO, IN MARCH I HAD MY CAR TOWED TO THE SHOP BECAUSE IT WOULD NOT START. THEY HAD TO CORRECT WIRING PROBLEM. ANOTHER PROBLEM, THEIR IS A TICKING SOUND. MECHANIC SAYS ITS SOME KIND OF FAN THAT COOLS THE AIR COMING INTO THE CAR. IT MAKES THAT TICKING SOUND EVEN IF MY CAR IS PARKED AND ENGINE TURNED OFF.
TL* THE CONTACT OWNS A 2008 CHRYSLER SEBRING CONVERTIBLE. WHEN THE SEAT BELT WAS BUCKLED, THE WARNING LIGHT REMAINED ILLUMINATED AND THE ENGINE FAILED WHILE DRIVING 10 MPH. THE VEHICLE WAS TAKEN IN FOR DIAGNOSTIC TESTING. THE MECHANIC STATED THAT THE VEHICLE COULD NOT BE DIAGNOSED BECAUSE THE BATTERY CONTINUED TO DRAIN. THE MANUFACTURER WAS NOTIFIED. THE APPROXIMATE FAILURE MILEAGE WAS 97,000.
THE DEALER INSISTED THAT THE RANDOM HORN BLOWING WAS COMING FROM A DEFECTIVE TIPM RATHER THAN A PROBLEM BEHIND THE AIRBAG WITHIN THE STEERING WHEEL WHICH IS WHERE MANY COMPLAINTS ABOUT THIS PROBLEM HAVE DETECTED THE CAUSE. THE CAR HORN BLOWS WHETHER IT IS STATIONARY OR MOVING. MECHANIC WOULD NOT CONSIDER THE POSSIBILITY OF REMOVING THE STEERING WHEEL CAP TO DETERMINE WHETHER IT WAS REALLY COMING FROM WITHIN THE STEERING WHEEL OR NOT. IT WAS JUST EASIER FOR THEM AND MORE EXPENSIVE FOR ME TO STATE THAT THE RANDOM HORN BLOWING CAME FROM THE TIPM. I RAN OUT OF THERE LIKE A BAT OUT OF HELL AFTER PAYING $280 FOR THE DIAGNOSTIC WORK! MEANWHILE, NOW I HAVE TO DRIVE THE CAR WITHOUT A HORN WHICH IS A SAFETY HAZARD.
TL* THE CONTACT OWNS A 2008 CHRYSLER SEBRING CONVERTIBLE. THE CONTACT STATED THAT AFTER THE VEHICLE WAS STARTED, THE INSTRUMENT PANEL FAILED TO OPERATE. IN ADDITION, THE CHECK ENGINE, THE AIR BAG, THE THROTTLE BODY CONTROL AND THE DRIVER SEAT BELT WARNING LIGHTS ILLUMINATED. THE VEHICLE WAS NOT DIAGNOSED OR REPAIRED. THE CONTACT MENTIONED THAT THE VEHICLE WAS PREVIOUSLY REPAIRED UNDER NHTSA CAMPAIGN NUMBER: 08V152000 (ELECTRICAL SYSTEM). THE MANUFACTURER WAS NOT NOTIFIED OF THE FAILURE. THE FAILURE MILEAGE WAS 150,000.
I WAS DRIVING ONE MORNING AND IT WAS RAINING. THE ELECTRONIC THROTTLE CONTROL LIGHT CAME ON AND THE CAR WOULDN'T ACCELERATE OVER 20 MPH. I CUT THE CAR OFF AND STARTED IT BACK UP AND IT DIDN'T DO IT ANYMORE. UNTIL THE OTHER DAY WHEN EXITING OFF THE INTERSTATE THE CAR LOST SPEED AND THE SAME LIGHT CAME ON. THE RESTARTING TRICK DIDN'T WORK. THE CAR RUNS SHAKY AND IS IDLED UP HIGH WHEN STARTED. THE CAR STILL WON'T ACCELERATE OVER 20MPH. HAD IT DIAGNOSED AND DISCOVERED THE THROTTLE BODY NEEDS TO BE REPLACED AS WELL AS THE INTAKE MANIFOLD RUNNER VALVE TO FIX THIS PROBLEM. I SEE A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT OWN THIS CAR 2007/2008 HAVE THIS PROBLEM. WHICH CAN POTENTIALLY BE DANGEROUS ESPECIALLY WHILE ON THE INTERSTATE!
FIRST I WENT TO START THE CAR, I NOTICED THE BATTERY WASN'T STARTING. I OPEN THE HOOD AND TRIED TO MOVE THE BATTERY POST, THEY WERE TIGHT, BUT THE PLASTIC COVER ON THE POST STARTED SENDING SPARKS OUT WHEN I TOUCHED IT. AFTER A WHILE I TRIED TO START IT AGAIN AND IT STARTED RIGHT UP. THEN I NOTICED THE MALFUNCTION INDICATOR LIGHT CAME ON. I LET IT RUN FOR ABOUT A MINUTE THEN I TURNED IT OFF. I DIDN'T DRIVE IT AT ALL THAT DAY. LATER I CHECKED IT AGAIN. IT DIDN'T START. SO I DID THE SAME THING AGAIN IT STARTED RIGHT UP BUT THE ELECTRONIC THROTTLE CONTROL LIGHT WAS ON AS WELL. I WAS AFRAID TO DRIVE IT I THOUGHT THE SPARKS MIGHT MAKE IT CATCH ON FIRE. I THINK THERE WERE A RECALL ON THIS CAR A WHILE BACK. I'VE NEVER HAD A PROBLEM WITH THIS CAR. I KNOW THAT MANY PEOPLE HAVE HAD THIS SAME PROBLEM ON THEIR CHRYSLER VEHICLES. I READ ABOUT MANY OTHER PROBLEMS AS WELL. WHAT SHOULD I DO NEXT? I'M REALLY NOT INTERESTED IN PAYING ANY DEDUCTIBLES AND CAR REPAIRS AT THIS TIME. HELP!!! IS THIS ANYTHING THAT I NEED TO WORRY ABOUT?
TL* THE CONTACT OWNS A 2008 CHRYSLER SEBRING CONVERTIBLE. WHILE DRIVING APPROXIMATELY 60 MPH, THE VEHICLE SHOOK VIOLENTLY WITHOUT WARNING. IN ADDITION, WHILE DRIVING AT LOW SPEEDS, THE VEHICLE JERKED FORWARD AND STALLED WITHOUT WARNING. THE VEHICLE WAS TAKEN TO A DEALER, BUT WAS NOT DIAGNOSED OR REPAIRED. WHILE DRIVING AT VARIOUS SPEEDS, THE CONTACT HEARD AN ABNORMAL NOISE COMING FROM THE REAR OF THE VEHICLE WHEN THE BRAKE PEDAL WAS DEPRESSED. THE VEHICLE WAS TAKEN TO A DEALER WHERE IT WAS DIAGNOSED THAT THE REAR BRAKES AND ROTORS NEEDED TO BE REPLACED. THE VEHICLE WAS REPAIRED; HOWEVER, THE FAILURE RECURRED MONTHLY. THE MANUFACTURER WAS NOT NOTIFIED OF THE FAILURE. THE FAILURE MILEAGE WAS 70,000.
WHILE DRIVING ON A HIGHWAY AT HIGH-SPEED, ALL THE ELECTRICAL INSTRUMENTS BEGAN FLASHING ON/OFF. THE AIRBAG LIGHT BEGAN FLASHING AND A CHIME COULD BE HEARD. THIS OCCURS INTERMITTENTLY (3-5 TIMES PER YEAR) AND CHRYSLER CANNOT PROPERLY DIAGNOSE THE PROBLEM. THIS SEEMS TO HAPPEN MOST FREQUENTLY WHILE DRIVING ON THE INTERSTATE WHILE RAINING WITH THE WINDSHIELD WIPERS ON HIGH. ON ONE OCCASION WHILE TRAVELLING THROUGH THE MOUNTAINS OF WESTERN PENNSYLVANIA ON THE TURNPIKE AT NIGHT IN THE RAIN THE ENTIRE CAR WENT DARK FOR ABOUT 10 SECONDS. IT APPEARED THAT THE SYSTEM REBOOTED. ORIGINAL OWNER.
WHILE DRIVING ON A HIGHWAY AT HIGH-SPEED, ALL THE ELECTRICAL INSTRUMENTS BEGAN FLASHING ON/OFF. THE AIRBAG LIGHT BEGAN FLASHING AND A CHIME COULD BE HEARD. THIS OCCURS INTERMITTENTLY (3-5 TIMES PER YEAR) AND CHRYSLER CANNOT PROPERLY DIAGNOSE THE PROBLEM. WITH THIS LATEST INCIDENT, THE DEALERSHIP TOLD ME IT WOULD COST $800 FOR A NEW POWER CONTROL MODULE. I RESEARCHED ONLINE ONLY TO LEARN THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WITH IDENTICAL COMPLAINTS ABOUT THEIR CHRYSLER VEHICLES, WHILE NHTSA REFUSES TO ORDER A RECALL. I REFUSE TO ALLOW CHRYSLER TO PERFORM WORK ON THIS VEHICLE UNLESS THEY CAN GUARANTEE THE REPAIR AND CAP THE COST. I PURCHASED THIS VEHICLE NEW AND CHRYSLER FAILED TO DISCLOSE TWO AUTO BODY REPAIRS PERFORMED PRIOR TO SALE - I DISCOVERED THIS ON THE CHRYSLER WEBSITE AND SINCE SPENT OVER $1,500 TO REPAIR IT BECAUSE CHRYSLER REFUSED TO ACCEPT ANY RESPONSIBILITY AFTER THE LEMON LAWS EXPIRED. *TR
WHILE DRIVING THE ENGINE LIGHT CAME ON, LOSS SPEED OCCURRED, CAR FELT LIKE IN WAS GOING TO DYE ON THE FREEWAY. NO ACCELERATION POWER. ENGINE LIGHT FLASHING, THROTTLE LIGHT FLASHING IN RED. CAR HAS NO PICK UP. I HAVE CALLED CHRYSLER AND WAS TOLD NO RECALL. I HAD IT CHECKED AT LOCAL AUTO SHOP AND CODE WAS P0035. CRANK SHAFT SENSOR. MANY CUSTOMERS HAVE HAD THIS ISSUE AND NO ONE NOT EVEN CHRYSLER CAN FIGURE OUT THE PROBLEM. *TR
CAR SHUTS OFF WHILE DRIVING NO POWER STEERING OR BRAKES. *TR
MY CAR CUT OFF WHILE DRIVING, THE WINDOWS WONT GO UP OR DOWN MY CAR WILL NOT UN LOCK THROUGH THE SWITCH IN THE CAR OR SOME TIMES THE KEY. *TR
TL* THE CONTACT OWNS A 2008 CHRYSLER SEBRING CONVERTIBLE. THE CONTACT STATED THAT THE TRUNK BOLT, LUG NUTS, SPRINGS AND THE METAL AREA AROUND THE TRUNK WERE ABNORMALLY CORRODED. ADDITIONALLY, THE CONTACT STATED THAT WHEN ATTEMPTING TO START THE VEHICLE, THE KEY WOULD BECOME STUCK IN THE IGNITION. THE CONTACT ALSO MENTIONED THAT THE REAR WINDOWS AND THE SUB ROOF FAILED TO OPEN. THE VEHICLE WAS NOT DIAGNOSED OR REPAIRED. THE MANUFACTURER WAS MADE AWARE OF THE FAILURE. THE FAILURE MILEAGE WAS 47,489. DJR
FIRST INDICATION OF AN ELECTRICAL PROBLEM OCCURRED IN JAN OF 2014, WHEN A YR. OLD BATTERY FAILED. DEALERSHIP REPLACED FREE OF CHARGE. IN AUGUST 2014, MY PASSENGER SIDE LOW-BEAM HEADLIGHT WENT OUT, SO I TOOK IT TO DEALERSHIP TO REPLACE THE BULB. IT DIDN'T FIX THE PROBLEM. THE DEALERSHIP KEPT THE CAR FOR 2 DAYS AND FOUND THERE WAS AN INTERNAL FAILURE IN THE TIPM DRIVER, THE BULB WAS BAD. BULB REPLACED, STILL NOT WORKING, MECHANIC TESTED AND TRACED WIRING AND CONNECTORS, ALL GOOD. MECHANIC FOUND TIPM HAS BAD CIRCUIT FOR RIGHT HEADLIGHT. WHOLE TIPM HAS TO BE REPLACED AT THE COST OF AROUND $1000. AFTER READING ABOUT THE CHRYSLER AND DODGE COMPLAINTS ONLINE, CONCERNING VEHICLES CUTTING OFF ALL POWER OVER 40 MPH, AND THE FILING OF A CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT AGAINST CHRYSLER LLC BY GIRARD GIBBS LLP, NOVEMBER 1ST, 2013, CONCERNING THE TIPMS HAVING A KNOWN SOFTWARE GLITCH IN CHRYSLER AND DODGE VEHICLES, I'M CONVINCED MY CAR HAS THE SAME PROBLEM. I CONTACTED A CHRYSLER REPRESENTATIVE, AND SHE SAID THERE WERE NO KNOWN RECALLS OF THE TIPM, SO SHE COULDN'T REALLY HELP ME OUT. I HAVE TO GET THIS PROBLEM FIXED, BEFORE IT GETS ANY WORSE AND CUTS OFF POWER TO MY ENGINE IN LOS ANGELES TRAFFIC, POSSIBLY CAUSING A CRASH AND MULTIPLE DEATHS. PLEASE INVESTIGATE THIS ISSUE FOR ALL CHRYSLER/DODGE OWNERS, 2007-PRESENT. THERE ARE MULTIPLE ELECTRICAL FAILURES CAUSED BY A SOFTWARE GLITCH IN THE TIPM. THE SEVERITY OF THIS ISSUE, MAKES IT IMPERATIVE THAT YOU NEED TO INVESTIGATE AND GET CHRYSLER TO ISSUE A RECALL. THANK YOU *TR
THE WINDSHIELD WIPERS STARTED STUTTERING THEN STOPPED COMPLETELY. WHEN I MOVE THE CONTROL ARM THEY WILL MOVE A LITTLE AT A TIME, THEN START TO GO REALLY FAST. I HAD TO LEAVE THEM ON THE FAST MODE OR ELSE I WOULD NOT BEEN ABLE TO DRIVE THE CAR. IT WAS POURING OUT. THANKFULLY I GOT TO WORK WITH NO ISSUES. I HAVE REPLACED THE WIPER MOTOR AND THE CONTROL ARM TO NO AVAIL, THE DEALER PUT IN A NEW WIPER KIT TO NO AVAIL. NOW I NEED A NEW TIPM MODULE.! *TR
JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE'S COMPLAINT ON THE 2008 SEBRING. THE ELECTRONIC THROTTLE CONTROL LIGHT COMES ON. THE CARS RPMS REV HIGH BUT THE CAR WON'T EVEN BE GOING FAST. THE CAR WILL SPEED UP ON ITS OWN AND JUMP WHILE SITTING AT A RED LIGHT. THEN ONCE THE LIGHT COMES ON AND YOU CUT THE CAR OFF IF YOU TRY TO CRANK IT BACK UP IT WENT CUT ON. THIS IS RIDICULOUS. I'VE ALMOST WRECKED QUITE A FEW TIMES. NOBODY KNOWS WHAT'S WRONG AND WHEN YOU TAKE IT TO THE DEALERSHIP THEY DON'T KNOW EITHER AND THEY ARE ALL RUDE. AND THEY CHARGE YOU 100$ TO DIAGNOSE IT. IF YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT VEHICLES YOU SHOULD DEF NOT WORK FOR CHRYSLER AND SHOULD NOT CHARGE PEOPLE FOR THE DIAGNOSTIC. *TR
WHILE DRIVING MY CAR STALLED AND SUDDENLY, WITHOUT WARNING CUT OFF! NEEDLESS TO SAY, THIS IS VERY DANGEROUS. I IMMEDIATELY TOOK MY CAR TO DEALER AND WAS CHARGED OVER $500 FOR TUNE-UP, OIL CHANGE, AND DIAGNOSTIC CHECK. ENGINE LIGHT CAME BACK ON WITHIN ONE WEEK. I CANNOT AFFORD THE COSTLY REPAIRS WHEN MECHANICS CANNOT DIAGNOSE THE ISSUE. HOWEVER, MORE IMPORTANTLY, I CANNOT AFFORD TO BE HURT IN A CAR ACCIDENT. BACK TO THE MECHANICS SPENDING $146.00 FOR OXYGEN SENSOR ~ ENGINE LIGHT BACK ON WITHIN ONE WEEK! CAR STALLING AND IDOL IS EXTREMELY HIGH ~ CAR CUTOFFS CONTINUES....EMISSIONS TEST TIME ~ FAILED! NOW TOLD NEED NEW POWER CONTROL MONITOR. ACCORDING TO THE MECHANIC " CODES ARE BEING SHOWN FOR NO REASON". *TR
MY 2008 SEBRING HAD THE ELECTRONIC THROTTLE CONTROL LIGHT COME ON. WHEN THIS HAPPENED THE VEHICLE IMMEDIATELY REDUCED ITSELF TO 2000 RPMS. I COULD NOT ACCELERATE BEYOND THAT THRESHOLD. IF THE VEHICLE CAME TO A STOP IT WOULD STALL OUT COMPLETELY. I HAVE READ SEVERAL SIMILAR REPORTS OF THIS ISSUE INCLUDING IT CAUSING INVOLUNTARY ACCELERATION. *JS
THE ELECTRO-LUMINESNCE LIGHTING FOR THE INSTRUMENT CLUSTER GOES OUT RANDOMLY AFTER STARTING THE CAR AFTER SAY FUELING, OR GOING TO A STORE. THERE APPEARS TO BE SOME CORRELATION WITH ENGINE TEMPERATURE; I.E., IT HAPPENS MORE FREQUENTLY WHEN THE ENGINE IS STILL WARM. THE CONDITION DOES NOT ALLOW ME TO VIEW THE INSTRUMENT PANEL (FUEL GAUGE, ENGINE TEMPERATURE, SPEEDOMETER, OR TACHOMETER) ALL OTHER WARNINGS AND MONITORING ARE OK (E.G., TIRE PRESSURE WARNINGS, ODOMETER, ETC). *TR
Higher-selling and older vehicles accumulate more reports. Counts are not failure rates and are not directly comparable between vehicles that sold in very different numbers.
Categories with enough reports to have a page of their own
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