RoadVitals

2012 Dodge Ram 3500 Engine Problems

Owner-reported complaints naming the engine system, filed with NHTSA

Data refreshed

Engine reportsComplaints are reports submitted to NHTSA by owners and drivers. NHTSA does not verify most reports before publishing them, and a complaint does not establish that a defect exists. Volume is influenced by how many of a vehicle were sold, how long it has been on the road, and how much attention an issue has received.
43
Latest Apr 30, 2026
Share of all reportsThis category as a share of every owner report on file for this model year. One report can name more than one component, so the categories overlap.
12%
of 365 total
Crash or fire reportedReports in this category whose submitter recorded that a crash or a fire occurred. The reporter's own answer on the NHTSA form, not a verified finding.
1
Injuries or deaths reportedTotals the submitters entered on their own reports in this category. Not verified by NHTSA and not a casualty statistic.
0

What this page shows

Reports naming the engine itself — including stalling, misfires, oil consumption, cooling and internal engine components. Every record below is an owner-reported complaint about the 2012 Dodge Ram 3500 submitted to NHTSA — not a confirmed defect, not a recall and not a manufacturer bulletin. 43 reports on file name it.

Complaints are reports submitted by owners and drivers to NHTSA. They are not verified and do not establish that a defect exists.

Owner reports naming engine

The 25 most recent of 43, in the owner's own words

EngineFuel systemPowertrain (other)
Filed Apr 30, 2026

Driving my 2012 dodge ram 3500, just as I was crossing one of the busiest intersections in my town my truck lost all power and dropped from 35mph to 5 mph. Barley made it acrossed and pulled over. As soon as I pulled over the engine light comes on, checked code, and U010C lost coms with turbo actuator comes up. Turned truck off and rest code and everything back to normal. About a week later it happened again, luckily not as busy of a spot. Called dealer and soonest appointment was in April. Meanwhile I look up code and see hundreds of post for same issue, bad actuator replace. 28 years as a diesel mechanic for the military, so I found the part online and ordered. Replaced the actuator, drove about 50 miles, light comes back on. Finally get my appointment with dealer and they say my turbo is bad, they want $8k to fix. I ordered the turbo and replaced it myself along with another actuator, test drove. Light still comes on but have not lost power yet?? Dealer is not helping. This is a major issue that is all over the internet! The truck just goes to limp and your in the middle of traffic. If this has not caused an accident it’s only a matter of time before it does. The dealer ship just wants to replace big parts for lots of money. I’m already $2500 into this and still having an issue

NHTSA ID
11734962
Incident
Nov 28, 2025
AirbagsEngineFuel system
Filed Sep 22, 2025

This truck has had to have several high temp burnoffs because of failures in the EGR and Carbon build up. The recent recall for Rams does not cover the 2012, and began at 2013, however, we are experiencing the same exact issues with the same type of system. In addition, we have had repeated airbag issues due to the positioning of the cockspring and wiring getting choked out.

NHTSA ID
11688894
Incident
Sep 2, 2025
EngineFuel system
Filed Mar 11, 2025

The contact owns a 2012 Ram 3500. The contact stated that while that while the vehicle was in for service, the independent mechanic discovered fuel leaking from the fuel filter heater assembly. The contact was advised that the fuel filter heater assembly needed to be replaced. The vehicle was not yet repaired. The manufacturer and local dealer were notified of the failure, but no assistance was offered. The contact was informed that the vehicle was previously repaired under NHTSA Campaign Number: 14V635000 (ENGINE AND ENGINE COOLING, FUEL SYSTEM, DIESEL). The contact stated that the vehicle had experienced the failure listed in the recall. The failure mileage was 202,000.

NHTSA ID
11647551
Incident
Mar 6, 2025
Mileage
202,000 mi
ElectricalEnginePowertrain (other)
Filed Feb 20, 2025

The wireless ignition module loses connection internally and the truck will lose power while driving. It usually happens when hitting a small bump and the key in the ignition moves. Truck loses electrical power which shuts the engine off which means loss of power steering and brakes.

NHTSA ID
11644035
Incident
Feb 13, 2025
Engine
Filed Oct 20, 2021

Break down of high pressure fuel pump causing lose of power and complete replacement of the fuel system

NHTSA ID
11437462
Incident
Oct 10, 2021
Engine
Filed Dec 10, 2020

WATER PUMP FAILURE, VEHICLE EQUIPPED WITH A CONCENTRIC WATER PUMP WITH NO WEEPHOLE. SAME CONCERN AS T51 WATER PUMP RECALL AFFECTING 2013-2017 RAM TRUCKS WITH 6.7 DIESEL ENGINE. THIS VEHICLE BUILT 12/2012 BUT IS CONSIDERED A 2012 NOT A 2013. CURRENT RECALL APPLIES TO 2013 MODELS BUILT AFTER OCT 24TH 2012.

NHTSA ID
11382873
Incident
Dec 6, 2020
Mileage
87,196 mi
ElectricalEngine
Filed Nov 14, 2020
Fire reported

AT APPROXIMATELY 11:30 PM, I HEARD A VEHICLE HORN HONKING OUTSIDE IN THE DRIVEWAY. GOT OUT OF BED TO INVESTIGATE. OBSERVED MY 2102 RAM 3500 DIESEL TRUCK WITH LIGHTS ON AND FLASHING AND HORN WAS HONKING. KEYS FOR TRUCK WERE IN THE HOUSE. WENT OUTSIDE WITH KEYS AND TRIED KEY-LESS ENTRY FOB TO OPEN THE CAB DOOR WITH NO SUCCESS. SMELLED SMOKE. OPENED DRIVERS SIDE DOOR WITH REGULAR KEY TO SEE LIGHTS ON DASHBOARD ALL LIT UP. OPENED THE HOOD TO SEE LOTS OF SMOKE AND OBSERVED GLOWING WIRING HARNESS NEXT TO DRIVER'S SIDE BATTERY. HARNESS WAS GLOWING ORANGE ALL THE WAY FROM THE FIREWALL TO THE FUSE BOX (POWER DISTRIBUTION MODULE) NEXT TO BATTERY. WENT INTO GARAGE TO GET WRENCHES AND FIRE EXTINGUISHER. DISCONNECTED DRIVER SIDE BATTERY BUT THE ELECTRICAL HARNESS WAS STILL GLOWING ORANGE AND SMOKING. NEXT, DISCONNECTED AUXILIARY BATTERY ON PASSENGER SIDE AND WIRING HARNESS STOPPED GLOWING AND BURNING. TRUCK WAS PARKED IN DRIVEWAY, IN FRONT OF GARAGE, NEXT TO THE HOUSE. KEYS WERE NOT IN THE VEHICLE AT THE TIME. VEHICLE WAS PARKED AND NOT RUNNING AT THE TIME. VEHICLE HAD NOT BEEN STARTED OR DRIVEN FOR APPROXIMATELY 2 WEEKS PRIOR TO THE SPONTANEOUS THERMAL EVENT. VEHICLE HAD APPROXIMATELY 56,500 MILES AT TIME OF THERMAL EVENT. MASSIVE SHORT CIRCUIT APPEARS TO HAVE ORIGINATED IN THE FUSE BOX (POWER DISTRIBUTION MODULE) UNDER THE HOOD, CAUSING ALL WIRES LEADING OUT OF THE MODULE TO SHORT CIRCUIT, CAUSING MASSIVE AND TOTAL ELECTRICAL SYSTEM FAILURE. REFERENCE NHTSA COMPLAINTS: 10926543 ' NOVEMBER 16, 2016 11084301 ' APRIL 10, 2018 11142816 ' OCTOBER 26, 2018

NHTSA ID
11374635
Incident
Oct 29, 2020
Mileage
56,500 mi
EnginePowertrain (other)
Filed Sep 30, 2020

SOMETHING IN TRANSMISSION (68RFE) FAILED AND DUMPS FLUID OUT OF THE TRANSMISSION DIP STICK TUBE ONTO THE TURBO WHICH COULD CAUSE A FIRE. THIS HAPPENED WHILE DRIVING AND SMOKE STARTED COMING OUT OF ENGINE COMPARTMENT. I WAS DRIVING ON A CITY STREET IN THE TOWN I LIVED.

NHTSA ID
11361986
Incident
Sep 12, 2020
Mileage
73,000 mi
Engine
Filed Jul 28, 2020

TL* THE CONTACT OWNS A 2012 RAM 3500. THE CONTACT STATED THAT WHILE DRIVING AT VARIOUS SPEEDS, THERE WAS AN ABNORMAL SOUND COMING FROM THE VEHICLE. THE VEHICLE WAS TAKEN TO GRIFFIN CHRYSLER DODGE JEEP RAM (1121 S MAIN ST, JEFFERSON, WI 53549) WHERE THE VEHICLE WAS DIAGNOSED AND IT WAS DETERMINED THAT THE WATER PUMP BEARING WAS DEFECTIVE AND NEEDED TO BE REPLACED. THE VEHICLE WAS REPAIRED. THE CONTACT REFERENCED NHTSA CAMPAIGN NUMBER: 17V562000 (ENGINE AND ENGINE COOLING) AS A POSSIBLE SOLUTION TO THE FAILURE HOWEVER, THE VIN WAS NOT INCLUDED. THE MANUFACTURER WAS INFORMED OF THE FAILURE. THE FAILURE MILEAGE WAS APPROXIMATELY 37,000.*LN*JB *JS*DT CONSUMER STATED ENGINE AND WATER PUMP BOTH SUBJECT TO A RECALL BUT VEHICLE WAS NOT INCLUDED IN THE RECALL.*JB

NHTSA ID
11341830
Incident
Jul 22, 2020
Mileage
37,000 mi
ElectricalEngine
Filed Jul 15, 2020

TL* THE CONTACT OWNS A 2012 DODGE RAM 3500. THE CONTACT STATED THAT WHILE DRIVING APPROXIMATELY 45 MPH, THE VEHICLE STALLED WITHOUT WARNING. THE CONTACT PULLED OVER TO THE SIDE OF THE ROADWAY AND WAITED FOR SEVERAL SECONDS BEFORE RESTARTING THE VEHICLE. THE VEHICLE WAS NOT TAKEN TO BE DIAGNOSED NOR REPAIRED. THE MANUFACTURER WAS NOTIFIED OF THE FAILURE AND REFERRED THE CONTACT TO THE NHTSA HOTLINE TO FILE A COMPLAINT. THE FAILURE MILEAGE WAS 110,386.

NHTSA ID
11339531
Incident
Jul 14, 2020
Mileage
110,386 mi
ElectricalEngineFuel system
Filed Jul 3, 2019

TRUCK SHUTS OFF AT RANDOM AT VARIOUS SPEEDS AND AFTER COASTING WILL START ITSELF UP AGAIN. THROWS EVERY LIGHT ON THE DASH ON INCLUDING TRAILER BRAKE MALFUNCTION BUT THROWS NO ECM CODES. I'M PRETTY SURE IT HAS TO DO WITH THE KEY FOB/STARTER RELAY RECOGNIZING THE KEY.

NHTSA ID
11229351
Incident
Jul 3, 2012
Mileage
156,000 mi
ElectricalEngineSteering
Filed Apr 8, 2019

WHILE DRIVING DOWN THE HIGHWAY, THE VEHICLE STALLED. I LOST POWER STEERING, BRAKES, ALL ELECTRICAL, AND ENGINE POWER. EVERYTHING STOPPED WORKING AND WENT BLACK. LUCKILY I WAS NOT PULLING A TRAILER, HAVE TO STOP, OR TURN FAST. IF I WOULD HAVE, I WOULD HAVE CRASHED.*DT CONSUMER STATED FUEL PUMP FAILED AND IT HAD A BAD GROUND. ABOVE THE REAR AXLE. IT HAD ELECTRICAL ISSUES. BACKUP CAMERA BLACKED OUT, REVERSE LIGHTS COME ON AND STAY ON, LIGHTS AND BLINKERS FLICKER. *JB

NHTSA ID
11194665
Incident
Apr 5, 2019
Mileage
118,000 mi
EnginePowertrain (other)
Filed Feb 28, 2018

TL* THE CONTACT OWNS A 2012 RAM 3500. THE VEHICLE WAS INCLUDED IN NHTSA CAMPAIGN NUMBER: 17V821000 (POWER TRAIN); HOWEVER, THE PARTS WERE NOT AVAILABLE. THE CONTACT HAD NOT RECEIVED A RECALL NOTICE. THE CONTACT STATED THAT THERE HAD BEEN ENGINE AND TRANSMISSION FAILURES WITH NO SOLUTION FROM CENTRAL JEEP CHRYSLER DODGE RAM OF RAYNHAM (191 US-44, RAYNHAM, MA 02767, (508) 823-0101) AFTER SEVERAL REPAIRS. THE MANUFACTURER WAS NOTIFIED OF THE FAILURES. THE VIN WAS NOT INCLUDED IN NHTSA CAMPAIGN NUMBERS: 14V635000 (ENGINE AND ENGINE COOLING, FUEL SYSTEM, DIESEL) AND 13V344000 (POWER TRAIN). THE MANUFACTURER ISSUED 13 TSBS FOR THE ENGINE AND 1 TSB FOR THE POWER TRAIN. THE FAILURE MILEAGE WAS NOT AVAILABLE. PARTS DISTRIBUTION DISCONNECT.

NHTSA ID
11075506
Incident
Aug 1, 2017
Engine
Filed Aug 16, 2017

THE 2012 DODGE RAM 3500 4X4 6.7 DIESEL WILL INTERMITTENTLY STOP RUNNING. THE GAUGES WILL ALL GO DEAD, THE ENGINE WILL STOP RUNNING AND WILL NOT START UP AGAIN UNTIL THE VEHICLE IS COMPLETELY STOPPED, PUT IN PARK AND KEY TURNED OFF AND THEN BACK ON AGAIN. IT DOES NOT MATTER IF THE VEHICLE IS AT HIGH OR LOW SPEEDS, WITH OR WITHOUT A LOAD, PULLING A TRAILER OR RUNNING EMPTY. ONCE IT HAS STARTED BACK UP, IT MAY RUN FOR A COUPLE OF WEEKS OR A COUPLE OF HOURS BEFORE IT DOES IT AGAIN. IT DOES NOT SEEM TO BE AFFECTED BY TEMPERATURE OR WEATHER BECAUSE IT HAS HAPPENED IN HOT AND COOL WEATHER AND WET AND DRY CONDITIONS. YESTERDAY IT HAPPENED WHEN I WAS MERGING ONTO THE FREEWAY AT 70 MPH. LAST WEEK IT HAPPENED WHEN I WAS PULLING OUT OF MY DRIVEWAY AT LESS THAN 5 MPH. ROAD SURFACE DOES NOT SEEM TO CREATE THE CONDITION FOR THE PROBLEM TO HAPPEN EITHER BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN ON BOTH SMOOTH SURFACES WHEN IT HAPPENED AND ON DIRT ROADS HAPPENED, ALWAYS AT VARIOUS SPEEDS. HAS ANYONE ELSE EXPERIENCED THIS PROBLEM OR IS THIS TRUCK JUST AN ODDITY?

NHTSA ID
11015686
Incident
Aug 15, 2017
Mileage
124,000 mi
EnginePowertrain (other)
Filed Aug 9, 2017

SCR CATALYST SYSTEM, ENGINE LIGHT ON FOR IT, EVERY OTHER RTUCK WITH THIS SYSTEM HAS BEEN RECALLED ALREADY

NHTSA ID
11013906
Incident
Aug 9, 2017
AirbagsEngineFuel system
Filed Jul 18, 2016

TL* THE CONTACT OWNS A 2012 RAM 3500. THE CONTACT RECEIVED NOTIFICATION OF NHTSA CAMPAIGN NUMBERS: 16V352000 (AIR BAGS) AND 14V635000 (ENGINE AND ENGINE COOLING, FUEL SYSTEM, DIESEL). HOWEVER, THE PARTS TO DO THE REPAIRS WERE NOT AVAILABLE. THE CONTACT STATED THAT THE MANUFACTURER EXCEEDED A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF TIME FOR THE RECALL REPAIR. THE MANUFACTURER WAS MADE AWARE OF THE ISSUE.

NHTSA ID
10885608
Incident
Dec 1, 2014
AirbagsEngineFuel system
Filed Dec 18, 2015

TL* THE CONTACT OWNS A 2012 RAM 3500. THE CONTACT RECEIVED NOTIFICATION OF NHTSA CAMPAIGN NUMBERS: 14V635000 (ENGINE AND ENGINE COOLING, FUEL SYSTEM, DIESEL) AND 15V459000 (AIR BAGS), HOWEVER, THE PARTS TO DO THE REPAIRS WERE UNAVAILABLE. THE CONTACT STATED THAT THE MANUFACTURER EXCEEDED A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF TIME FOR THE RECALL REPAIRS. THE MANUFACTURER WAS NOT MADE AWARE OF THE ISSUE. THE CONTACT HAD NOT EXPERIENCED A FAILURE. PARTS DISTRIBUTION DISCONNECT.

NHTSA ID
10811069
Incident
Dec 1, 2014
Engine
Filed Nov 6, 2015

WHILE DRIVING THE VEHICLE COMPLETELY LOOSES ALL POWER,PRESS ON THE ACCELATOR AND NOTHING AND AFTER ABOUT 6 SECONDS IT'S BACK TO NORMAL,,THIS HAS HAPPENED ON THE FREEWAY AND ON CITY STREETS...I CALLED CHRYSLER ABOUT THE PROBLEM AND WAS TOLD THERE WAS NO RECALL AND FOR ME TO TAKE IT IN TO THE DEALER AND TELL THEM ABOUT IT,I TOOK IT IN TODAY AND THEY CHECKED FOR TROUBLE CODES AND SAID THERE WERE NONE AND NO RECALLS WERE ON THE TRUCK FOR THAT PROBLEM AND THERE WAS NOTHING THEY COULD DO ABOUT IT...THE TRUCK IS A DIESEL AND ONLY HAS 32000 MILES...AND HAS NO WARRANTY.

NHTSA ID
10788785
Incident
Nov 2, 2015
Mileage
32,000 mi
AirbagsEngineFuel system
Filed Nov 3, 2015

TL* THE CONTACT OWNS A 2012 DODGE RAM 3500. THE CONTACT RECEIVED NOTIFICATION OF NHTSA CAMPAIGN NUMBERS: 14V635000 (ENGINE AND ENGINE COOLING, FUEL SYSTEM) AND A5V459000 (AIR BAGS). THE PARTS TO DO THE RECALL REPAIRS WERE UNAVAILABLE. THE CONTACT STATED THAT THE MANUFACTURER EXCEEDED A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF TIME FOR THE RECALL REPAIRS. THE MANUFACTURER WAS AWARE OF THE ISSUE. THE CONTACT HAD NOT EXPERIENCED A FAILURE. PARTS DISTRIBUTION DISCONNECT.

NHTSA ID
10788025
Incident
Dec 1, 2014
Engine
Filed Oct 7, 2015

TL* THE CONTACT OWNS A 2012 DODGE RAM 3500. THE CONTACT STATED THAT THE VEHICLE WAS REPAIRED UNDER NHTSA CAMPAIGN NUMBER: 11V350000 (STEERING) AND NHTSA CAMPAIGN NUMBER: 13V529000 (STEERING). THE CONTACT MENTIONED THAT THE RECALL REMEDY DETAILS FOR NHTSA CAMPAIGN NUMBER: 13V529000 (STEERING) AND ASSOCIATED DOCUMENTS INFORMATION DID NOT MATCH. IN ADDITION, THE ENGINE WARNING INDICATOR ILLUMINATED WHILE DRIVING VARIOUS SPEEDS. THE VEHICLE WAS TAKEN TO THE DEALER, WHO STATED THAT THE EMISSIONS O2 SENSORS FAILED. THE 02 SENSOR WAS REPLACED NUMEROUS TIMES ON SEPARATE OCCASIONS. THE MANUFACTURER WAS NOTIFIED OF THE FAILURE. THE APPROXIMATE FAILURE MILEAGE WAS 4,000.

NHTSA ID
10780448
Incident
Sep 10, 2013
Mileage
4,000 mi
AirbagsEngineFuel system+1 more
Filed Oct 6, 2015

TL* THE CONTACT OWNS A 2012 DODGE RAM 3500. THE CONTACT STATED THAT THERE WAS AN EXTENSIVE DELAY IN SCHEDULING THE RECALL REPAIR APPOINTMENTS FOR THE THREE RECALL REPAIRS. THE VEHICLE WAS INCLUDED IN NHTSA CAMPAIGN NUMBER: 15V459000, (AIR BAGS), 14V635000 (ENGINE AND ENGINE COOLING, FUEL SYSTEM, DIESEL), AND 13V529000 (STEERING). THE PARTS WERE NOT AVAILABLE WITHIN A REASONABLE TIME FRAME TO SCHEDULE THE RECALL REPAIR. THE DEALER DID NOT GIVE A SPECIFIC DATE FOR WHEN THE PART WOULD BECOME AVAILABLE. THE MANUFACTURER COULD NOT PROVIDE AN ESTIMATED DATE FOR WHEN THE VEHICLE WOULD RECEIVE THE RECALL REPAIRS. THE CONTACT WAS NOT EXPERIENCING A FAILURE.

NHTSA ID
10780184
Incident
Dec 20, 2013
EngineExterior lightingVisibility
Filed Sep 25, 2015

TL* THE CONTACT OWNS A 2012 DODGE RAM 3500. WHILE DRIVING 65-70 MPH, THE ENGINE AND SEAT BELT WARNING LIGHTS ILLUMINATED. IN ADDITION, THE RPMS FLUCTUATED AND ALL THE LIGHTS ON THE VEHICLE ILLUMINATED SIMULTANEOUSLY. THE WINDSHIELD WIPERS ALSO ACTIVATED INDEPENDENTLY. THE FAILURE RECURRED MULTIPLE TIMES. THE VEHICLE WAS NOT DIAGNOSED OR REPAIRED. THE APPROXIMATE FAILURE MILEAGE WAS 168,000.

NHTSA ID
10777756
Incident
Nov 25, 2013
Mileage
168,000 mi
EngineFuel system
Filed Sep 23, 2015

TL* THE CONTACT OWNS A 2012 DODGE RAM 3500. THE CONTACT RECEIVED A NOTIFICATION OF NHTSA CAMPAIGN NUMBER: 14V635000 (ENGINE AND ENGINE COOLING, FUEL SYSTEM, DIESEL); HOWEVER, THE RECALL PART WAS NOT AVAILABLE. THE CONTACT STATED THAT THE MANUFACTURER EXCEEDED A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF TIME FOR THE RECALL REPAIR. THE MANUFACTURER WAS NOT NOTIFIED OF THE ISSUE. THE CONTACT HAD NOT EXPERIENCED A FAILURE.

NHTSA ID
10775432
Incident
Apr 1, 2015
EngineFuel systemSteering
Filed Aug 10, 2015

TL* THE CONTACT OWNS A 2012 DODGE RAM 3500. THE CONTACT RECEIVED NOTIFICATION OF NHTSA CAMPAIGN NUMBERS: 14V635000 (ENGINE AND ENGINE COOLING, FUEL SYSTEM, DIESEL) AND 13V529000 (STEERING); HOWEVER, THE PART WAS NOT AVAILABLE WITHIN A REASONABLE TIMEFRAME TO SCHEDULE THE RECALL REPAIR. THE DEALER DID NOT GIVE A SPECIFIC DATE FOR WHEN THE PART WOULD BECOME AVAILABLE. THE MANUFACTURER WAS CONTACTED AND COULD NOT PROVIDE AN ESTIMATED DATE FOR WHEN THE CONTACT'S VEHICLE WOULD RECEIVE THE RECALL REPAIR. THE CONTACT WAS NOT EXPERIENCING A FAILURE.

NHTSA ID
10747416
Incident
Dec 20, 2013
EngineFuel system
Filed Jun 24, 2015

TL* THE CONTACT OWNS A 2012 DODGE RAM 3500. THE CONTACT RECEIVED NOTIFICATION OF NHTSA CAMPAIGN NUMBER: 14V635000 (ENGINE AND ENGINE COOLING, FUEL SYSTEM, DIESEL); HOWEVER, THE PART NEEDED TO DO THE REPAIR WAS UNAVAILABLE. THE CONTACT STATED THAT THE MANUFACTURER EXCEEDED A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF TIME FOR THE RECALL REPAIR. THE MANUFACTURER WAS MADE AWARE OF THE ISSUE. THE CONTACT HAD NOT EXPERIENCED A FAILURE. MA 10/8 UPDATED 10/26/2017*CN

NHTSA ID
10730111
Incident
Oct 8, 2014

Higher-selling and older vehicles accumulate more reports. Counts are not failure rates and are not directly comparable between vehicles that sold in very different numbers.

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