RoadVitals

2010 Honda Odyssey Electrical Problems

Owner-reported complaints naming the electrical system, filed with NHTSA

Data refreshed

Electrical reportsComplaints are reports submitted to NHTSA by owners and drivers. NHTSA does not verify most reports before publishing them, and a complaint does not establish that a defect exists. Volume is influenced by how many of a vehicle were sold, how long it has been on the road, and how much attention an issue has received.
32
Latest Jul 22, 2026
Share of all reportsThis category as a share of every owner report on file for this model year. One report can name more than one component, so the categories overlap.
13%
of 255 total
Crash or fire reportedReports in this category whose submitter recorded that a crash or a fire occurred. The reporter's own answer on the NHTSA form, not a verified finding.
3
Injuries or deaths reportedTotals the submitters entered on their own reports in this category. Not verified by NHTSA and not a casualty statistic.
4

What this page shows

Reports naming the electrical system — wiring, battery, charging, control modules, infotainment and electrical accessories. Every record below is an owner-reported complaint about the 2010 Honda Odyssey submitted to NHTSA — not a confirmed defect, not a recall and not a manufacturer bulletin. 32 reports on file name it.

Complaints are reports submitted by owners and drivers to NHTSA. They are not verified and do not establish that a defect exists.

Owner reports naming electrical

The 25 most recent of 32, in the owner's own words

Electrical
Filed Jul 22, 2026
Fire reported

The contact owns a 2010 Honda Odyssey. The contact stated that while driving at an undisclosed speed, the battery warning light illuminated, and smoke was coming from under the front passenger’s side hood. The vehicle was driven to the residence and parked. The contact stated that moments later, smoke and flames were coming from underneath the hood of the vehicle, and the Fire Department was called to the scene. The contact was able to extinguish the flames using a water hose prior to the Fire Department arriving at the residence. While at the residence, the fireman disconnected the battery as a precaution. The cause of the fire was not yet determined. The local dealer was notified of the failure. The manufacturer was not contacted. The failure mileage was 182,697.

NHTSA ID
11752167
Incident
Jul 17, 2026
Mileage
182,697 mi
Electrical
Filed Oct 16, 2025

A few months ago, the battery went dead. I purchased a new battery and it went dead also. I had the mechanic check it and he said that some Honda Odyssey's had that problem (usually 2011). Even if everything is turned off, the battery will die in less than two days if the van is not driven. This has led to the van being inoperable in various locations requiring a locksmith to come open the car so the hood can be opened so the the battery can be recharged. The mechanic spent a few hours and was able to pinpoint the "faulty" fuse(Driver's side, #7, 7.5A, "backup"), but said that there were 13 different subsystems associated with that fuse and that it would take many hours to isolate and test each individual subsystem which would cost many thousands of dollars--more than the car is considered to be worth. So he recommended that I just either drive it every day or pull the fuse at night. In addition to the battery going dead, one of the problems, is that I don't feel safe to lock the car because I know I won't be able to unlock it if the battery dies.

NHTSA ID
11693950
Incident
May 1, 2025
ElectricalExterior lighting
Filed Mar 10, 2024

It started with the alarm turning on randomly. DRL not turning off and battery got drained.

NHTSA ID
11576469
Incident
Feb 29, 2024
ElectricalSuspension
Filed Nov 18, 2023

Passenger side sliding door jammed halfway open and would not close or open. Had to have the car towed to the mechanic and have all components of sliding door replaced (twice!). Driver's side strut spring broke under normal use - with 62000 miles on the vehicle. Now rear backup camera/GPS/radio unit has ceased working at all. Passenger side door also randomly begins to close part way through opening, nearly injuring my child's friend who was exiting the vehicle.

NHTSA ID
11555862
Incident
Nov 5, 2023
Body & structureElectrical
Filed Dec 7, 2022

DEATH TRAP Front windows open and close by themselves while driving - dangerous for kids and pets in car Sliding doors on both sides do not work properly - do not latch - passenger door doesn't slide open or closed Door locks unresponsive - last week only driver's door and tail gate would unlock and open

NHTSA ID
11496350
Incident
Dec 7, 2022
Body & structureElectrical
Filed Oct 31, 2022
2 injuries reported

I opened the sliding door for my 5 yr old grandson, and while he was getting in the sliding door Opened and shut while he was getting in an almost closed him in by squeezed him alil I had to push the button instantly to open back up.an it happened when we was at the zoo also it Opened half way an was closing on its own

NHTSA ID
11491562
Incident
Oct 17, 2022
ElectricalEngineFuel system
Filed Aug 9, 2022
Fire reported

We had driven less than half a mile, and we’re sitting in traffic to turn when all of the warning lights came on and the van shut off. We restarted the car and the same thing happened. Then there was a popping noise and smoke began coming from under the hood. Within 2 minutes the van caught on fire. The entire engine compartment burned, as did the windshield and part of the dashboard.

NHTSA ID
11478348
Incident
Aug 8, 2022
ElectricalEngine
Filed Jul 21, 2022
Fire reported

My car self-combusted and caught fire while parked in my driveway. The fire started in the hood of the car and continued for 30 minutes or so despite my best efforts to put out with my hose. The fire department had to come to put out the fire. The car was parked for 90 minutes from last usage and no one was in the car. The temperature outside was around 80 degrees. This is potentially a huge safety risk for Odyssey owners. The car had 124k miles on it and had done the full 120k maintenance service at Honda dealer (Honda of Kirkland). The car was serviced per regular maintenance schedule by the Honda dealer. Hard to believe a car will go up in flames on my driveway like that. See pictures. Fire department was from Eastside Fire Station 33. Captain Kurt McGowan. Fire witnessed by many of my neighbors who also tried to help me put out the fire before fire truck came.

NHTSA ID
11475183
Incident
Jul 19, 2022
Electrical
Filed Aug 27, 2020

VAN DOORS OPEN ON OWN, DO NOT CLOSE ALL THE WAY AND DRAIN THE BATTERY

NHTSA ID
11351521
Incident
Jan 1, 2010
ElectricalEnginePowertrain (other)
Filed Jul 6, 2020

2010 ODYSSEY W/ ABOUT 159K MILES. ENGINE STARTED MISFIRING. THERE WAS A RECALL ON THIS, BUT HONDA IS SAYING IT EXPIRED, AND I AM NOT ELIGIBLE FOR COST COVERAGE, AND THE REPAIRS ONLY HAVE A 50% CHANCE OF FIXING THE ISSUE. I BOUGHT THE CAR USED IN 2016, AND THEY SAY THE RECALL EXPIRED AFTER MAKE YEAR. I WAS DRIVING MY CAR TO WORK AND IT LOST THE ABILITY TO ACCELERATE AND WHITE SMOKE WAS COMING OUT EXHAUST. AND THE BELT SNAPPED AND IT HAS BEEN PARKED SINCE EARLY FEBRUARY.

NHTSA ID
11337654
Incident
Mar 4, 2020
Mileage
159,000 mi
ElectricalEngineFuel system
Filed Jun 12, 2020

2010 ODYSSEY W/ ABOUT 70K MILES. ENGINE STARTED MISFIRING. THERE WAS A RECALL ON THIS, BUT HONDA IS SAYING IT EXPIRED, AND I AM NOT ELIGIBLE FOR COST COVERAGE, AND THE REPAIRS ONLY HAVE A 50% CHANCE OF FIXING THE ISSUE. I BOUGHT THE CAR USED IN 2019, AND THEY SAY THE RECALL EXPIRED 8 YEARS AFTER MAKE YEAR. I WAS DRIVING MY FAMILY TO THE BEACH AND IT BEGAN STRUGGLING TO ACCELERATE. WHITE SMOKE WAS COMING OUT EXHAUST. *TR

NHTSA ID
11328488
Incident
Jun 9, 2020
Mileage
70,000 mi
Electrical
Filed Mar 26, 2020

RADIATOR FAN RUNNING AND ALARM GOING OFF WITHOUT KEY IN IGNITION. REAR DRIVER SIDE WINDOW GOING DOWN ON IT'S OWN WHEN CAR IS ON. TO GET WINDOW UP I HAVE TO OPEN DRIVER'S DOOR AND ROLL WINDOW UP AND LOCK IT FOR IT TO STAY UP. HAVE TO KEEP DRIVER'S SEATBELT ON ALL THE TIME TO PREVENT ALARM TO GO OFF. WENT DEALER AND THEY CHARGE A LOT OF MONEY AND COULD NOT FIND PROBLEM AND NEEDED MORE TIME TO FIGURE IT OUT IN WHICH I WOULD BE BILLED A WHOLE LOT MORE. I REFUSED TO PAY MORE . VERY FRUSTRATED AND FED UP WITH THE PROBLEMS ON THIS CAR.

NHTSA ID
11319322
Incident
Mar 2, 2019
Mileage
94,000 mi
ElectricalEngine
Filed Nov 29, 2019

VAN WILL START PERIODICALLY. BUT THE NEXT DAY THE BATTERY WILL BE DEAD & HAS BEEN JUMPED OFF WITH JUMP BOX & OTHER VEHICLES ASSIST. BUT BATTERY IS NEW, TERMINALS CLEANED. VAN WILL NOT EVEN MAKE A CLICKING SOUND. I FEEL THAT THERE IS EVIDENCE OF FAULTY IGNITION SWITCH, STARTER RELAY OR PARKED/NEUTRAL SAFETY SWITCH & MAYBE MORE DEPENDING ON CHASSIS ELECTRICAL. THE VEHICLE IS ALSO STATIONARY UNTIL THE NEXT MORNING.THIS HAPPENS TO BE MY WIFE'S VEHICLE... NEED THIS FIXED ASAP..

NHTSA ID
11282881
Incident
Nov 8, 2019
Mileage
142,000 mi
Body & structureElectrical
Filed Sep 25, 2019
1 injury reported

TL* THE CONTACT OWNS A 2010 HONDA ODYSSEY. WHILE THE VEHICLE WAS STATIONARY, THE REAR DRIVER'S SIDE SLIDING DOOR FAILED TO LOCK. THERE WERE NO WARNING INDICATORS ILLUMINATED. THE VEHICLE WAS TAKEN TO BIANCHI HONDA (LOCATED AT 8430 PEACH ST, ERIE, PA 16509,(814) 868-9678) WHERE IT WAS DIAGNOSED THAT THE GEAR ON THE REAR DRIVER'S SIDE SLIDING DOOR NEEDED TO BE REPLACED. THE VEHICLE WAS REPAIRED, BUT THE FAILURE RECURRED IN JULY OF 2019. ON SEPTEMBER 19, 2019, WHEN THE CONTACT DEPRESSED THE BUTTON TO OPEN THE REAR DRIVER'S SIDE SLIDING DOOR, THE CONTACT REACHED INSIDE THE SLIDING DOOR AS IT STARTED TO CLOSE. THE CONTACT SUSTAINED A FRACTURED LEFT RIB AND INJURIES TO THE UPPER RIGHT BACK AND SHOULDER. THERE WAS ALSO PAIN ON THE CONTACT'S RIGHT CALF. THE CONTACT SOUGHT MEDICAL ATTENTION AND WAS BREATHING IN A MACHINE FOR HER LUNGS NOT TO COLLAPSE. SHE ALSO VISITED AN ORTHOPEDIC SURGEON FOR THE MUSCLES IN HER BACK AND SHOULDER. THE MANUFACTURER WAS INFORMED OF THE FAILURE. THE FAILURE MILEAGE WAS 140,000.

NHTSA ID
11258172
Incident
Dec 1, 2018
Mileage
140,000 mi
Electrical
Filed Aug 19, 2019

CAR DOORS GET JAMMED DUE TO ELECTRIC CABLE, WILL NOT OPEN OR CLOSE

NHTSA ID
11245136
Incident
Aug 19, 2019
Mileage
77,000 mi
Body & structureElectrical
Filed Jul 10, 2019
1 injury reported

ELECTRIC SLIDING DOORS WILL CATCH AND REVERSE. IT HAS HURT MY CHILDREN MULTIPLE TIMES OVER THE PAST YEAR. THE CAR HAS 90K TO 120K ON IT OVER THE COURSE OF IT HAPPENING.

NHTSA ID
11230752
Incident
May 23, 2019
Mileage
90,000 mi
Body & structureElectrical
Filed Jun 12, 2017

NOT LONG AFTER WE BOUGHT THE CAR FROM A HONDA DEALERSHIP (ONE PREVIOUS OWNER) THE PASSENGER SIDE DOOR STARTED FREEZING UP. WE COULD NEITHER OPEN NOR CLOSE IT PROPERLY. WHEN WE BROUGHT IT IN, WE WERE SHOCKED WHEN THE MECHANIC TOLD US HE SAW THE PROBLEM ALL THE TIME ON THAT MODEL, AND THAT WE WERE LUCKY THE DOOR HAD NOT FALLEN OFF ON US, BECAUSE HE HAD SEEN IT HAPPEN TO OTHERS. WE HAVE THREE LITTLE KIDS...MOST MINIVAN OWNERS HAVE YOUNG KIDS! THEY REPLACED THE CHEAP PLASTIC ROLLERS WITH MORE CHEAP PLASTIC ROLLERS (WHY OF WHY IS THIS HONDA'S ONLY OPTION TO SUPPORT A HUGE, HEAVY STEEL DOOR?!) AND REMOVED THE AUTOMATIC MECHANISM ON THE PASSENGER SIDE. NOW WE ARE HAVING THE SAME PROBLEM WITH THE DRIVER'S SIDE AUTOMATIC DOOR. IT IS COMPLETELY FROZEN (AT THIS POINT IT'S FROZEN WHETHER IT'S IN AUTOMATIC MODE OR MANUAL), AND I HAVE LEFT IT SHUT THAT WAY BECAUSE I WOULD RATHER HAVE MY KIDS CLIMB IN THE OTHER SIDE, AND BUCKLE MY 4 YEAR OLD IN THROUGH THE WINDOW, THAN TRY TO OPEN IT AND RISK HAVING IT FALL ON SOMEONE. I HAVE SPOKEN TO OTHER MOTHERS IN MY TOWN WHO OWN THIS SAME CAR AND HAVE HAD THE SAME PROBLEM WITH THE DOORS. THIS IS NOT JUST AN INCONVENIENCE, IT IS A HUGE SAFETY ISSUE! WHAT IF BOTH DOORS FROZE ON SOMEONE DURING AN ACCIDENT AND THEY COULDN'T GET THEIR KIDS OUT? WHAT IF THE DOOR FELL OFF ON A CHILD?! AN ADULT MIGHT SUFFER ONLY MINOR INJURIES FROM SUCH A THING, BUT A CHILD WOULD BE CRUSHED. THERE ARE REPORTS OF THIS HAPPENING ALL OVER THE INTERNET, WITH HONDA USUALLY TELLING THE OWNERS THE PROBLEM IS SOMEHOW THEIR FAULT. TOYOTA HAD THE SAME PROBLEM ON THE SIENNA AND THEY DID A RECALL. WHY HAS HONDA NOT YET BEEN REQUIRED TO DO THE SAME?! HERE YOU CAN READ JUST SOME OF THE STORIES FROM OTHER ODYSSEY OWNERS: HTTPS://WWW.CARGURUS.COM/CARS/DISCUSSION-C3864_DS475308.

NHTSA ID
10994569
Incident
May 1, 2017
Electrical
Filed May 8, 2017

WHILE DRIVING TO TEXAS FROM ST. LOUIS OUR VAN SUDDENLY DIED ON INTERSTATE 44. IT HAPPENED AT 1AM. WE CALLED USAA FOR HELP. THEY GOT US TO A REPAIR SHOP. WE LEARNED THE POWER STEERING FLUID LEAKED CAUSING THE ALTERNATOR TO DIE. WE HAD ZERO POWER ON THE INTERSTATE AND MY FAMILY OF 5 WAS IN DANGER. WE LEARNED AT THE SHOP THE POWER STEERING WAS UNDER EXTENDED WARRANTY INSTEAD OF RECALL. THIS CAUSED OUR VAN TO DIE ON THE INTERSTATE AND PUT MY FAMILY IN IMMEDIATE RISK OF DEATH. WE WERE NOT TOLD OF THE EXTENDED WARRANTY BECAUSE HONDA INFORMED US THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO. THE REPAIR SHOP IN OKLAHOMA CITY THAT FIXED OUR ALTERNATOR TOLD US THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN A RECALL AND WE WERE PUT AT RISK. PLEASE REVIEW AND MAKE THE CALL FOR A RECALL INSTEAD OF AN EXTENDED WARRANTY. MY CHILDREN WERE CRYING AND CLEARLY SHAKEN BY THE ENTIRE EVENT. HAD AN 18 WHEELER PASSED US AT THE TIME, THEY WOULD NOT HAVE SEEN US AND SURELY WOULD HAVE KILLED US ALL.

NHTSA ID
10984382
Incident
Mar 11, 2017
Mileage
150,000 mi
Electrical
Filed Apr 8, 2016

DRIVER'S DOOR UNLOCKS SPONTANEOUSLY WHEN MAKING SLOW RIGHT HAND TURNS WHILE CAR IS IN MOTION AT LOW SPEEDS. IT THEN RE LOCKS, ONLY TO SPONTANEOUSLY UNLOCK AGAIN.

NHTSA ID
10854390
Incident
Apr 3, 2010
Mileage
81,500 mi
Electrical
Filed Aug 24, 2015

RIGHT REAR TAIL LAMP UNIT WAS COLLECTING WATER INSIDE THE HOUSING. DEALER ADVISED TO HAVE THIS REPLACED AS IT WAS A POTENTIAL FIRE HAZARD IF THERE WAS A SHORT CIRCUIT. IN JULY 2015, LEFT REAR TAIL LAMP STARTING COLLECTING WATER AS WELL.

NHTSA ID
10758769
Incident
Mar 25, 2013
Mileage
48,534 mi
AirbagsElectrical
Filed May 23, 2015

TL* THE CONTACT OWNS A 2010 HONDA ODYSSEY. THE CONTACT STATED THAT THE AIR BAG WARNING INDICATOR ILLUMINATED AND THE FUEL GAUGE BECAME INOPERABLE. THE VEHICLE WAS NOT DIAGNOSED OR REPAIRED. THE MANUFACTURER WAS NOT NOTIFIED OF THE FAILURES. THE APPROXIMATE FAILURE MILEAGE WAS 44,000.

NHTSA ID
10721157
Incident
Oct 15, 2014
Mileage
44,000 mi
ElectricalExterior lighting
Filed Jan 8, 2015

REAR TAILLIGHTS ON LEFT AND RIGHT SIDES FILL WITH WATER AFTER RAIN FALL. ACCUMULATING WATER HAS LEAD TO WATER FLOW INTO INTERIOR TRANSFERRING CAUSTIC SUBSTANCES INTO PASSENGER AREA THAT HAVE BURNED INTERIOR CARPET IN REAR COMPARTMENT FORTUNATELY CHEMICAL BURNING WAS DISCOVERED AND NEUTRALIZED BEFORE MAJOR FIRE ENSUED. DEALERSHIP STATED NOT A KNOWN ISSUE, NOT COVERED UNDER WARRANTY. STATE INSPECTION SITE WILL NOT PASS VEHICLE SAFETY INSPECTION BECAUSE OF ELECTRICAL FIRE DANGER. *TR

NHTSA ID
10671209
Incident
Jun 15, 2013
BrakesDriver assistanceElectrical
Filed Jan 6, 2014

I GOT INTO THE CAR WITH MY CHILDREN ON JAN 3RD AT ABOUT 11:30 AM. AS WE WERE APPROACHING THE HIGHWAY ON-RAMP, THE CAR SUDDENLY STOPPED (BRAKE) FOR ABSOLUTELY NO REASON WHILE I HAD MY FOOT ON THE GAS! I MADE A U-TURN TO GET AWAY FROM THE ON-RAMP AND GO HOME. THE CAR WAS NOT DRIVING RIGHT. THE CAR SLOWED/STOPPED 2 MORE TIMES. I WAS ON MY STREET, WHEN THE "BRAKES WENT OUT". I COASTED INTO MY DRIVEWAY. SMOKE BEGAN BILLOWING OUT OF FRONT WHEEL WELLS. WHEN I WAS TURNING OFF THE IGNITION, THE VSA LIGHT CAME ON. I DIDN'T KNOW IF THE CAR WAS ON FIRE, SO I RUSHED MY KIDS OUT OF THE CAR AND CALLED 911. THE FIRE DEPARTMENT ARRIVED WHILE THE CAR WAS STILL SMOKING, HOT, AND SMELLING. I HAD CAR TOWED. THE DEALERSHIP CALLED AND WAS GOING TO GET HONDA INVOLVED. THEY COULD NOT SEE ANY PROBLEMS AND COULDN'T DUPLICATE THE EVENT. MY SERVICE ADVISOR SAID THAT THE CAR WAS "DRIVABLE", BUT DIDN'T FEEL COMFORTABLE LETTING ME TAKE IT. I SAID THAT I DIDN'T FEEL COMFORTABLE TAKING IT BECAUSE I CAN?T TRUST ITS SAFETY. JANUARY 5- I HAVE BEEN DOING A LOT OF RESEARCH ABOUT A VERY RECENT RECALL ON THIS EXACT PROBLEM. THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH A YAW SENSOR TELLING THE VSA SYSTEM TO ENGAGE WHILE THE CAR IS ACCELERATING WITHOUT THE BRAKE LIGHTS TURNING ON. NOW IT ALL MAKES SENSE! THE ONLY PROBLEM IS THAT MY CAR IS NOT NAMED IN THIS RECALL. ONLY 2007-2008 HONDA ODYSSEY OWNERS WERE NOTIFIED. I HAVE A 2010. ACCORDING TO THE DOCUMENTS, HONDA DOES NOT HAVE THE PARTS TO FIX THE PROBLEM, BUT WILL EXPLAIN TO OWNERS WHAT TO DO IN CASE THIS SUDDEN STOPPING OCCURS. I AM DUMBFOUNDED! THERE IS NOT A CHANCE THAT MY CHILDREN AND I WILL GET INTO THAT CAR WITH "INSTRUCTIONS" IN THE EVENT THIS HAPPENS AGAIN. IT SEEMS THAT THE PROBLEM IS NOT CONTAINED TO 2007-2008 MODELS. IT IS QUITE OBVIOUS THAT HONDA NEEDS TO EXPAND ITS INITIAL RECALL. I THINK THEY SHOULD BE WARNED ABOUT THIS POTENTIALLY DEADLY PROBLEM. *TR

NHTSA ID
10558599
Incident
Jan 3, 2014
Mileage
68,000 mi
Electrical
Filed Nov 19, 2012

LETTER FROM SENATOR NELSON ON BEHALF ON CONSTITUENT, AN ACTIVE DUTY MILITARY MEMBER STATIONED IN GERMANY WHO IS HAVING PROBLEMS WITH HIS 2010 HONDA ODYSSEY (DOT/I# S2012 282). *SMD THE CONSUMER STATED THE VEHICLE HAS AN UNIDENTIFIED ELECTRICAL AND/OR COMPUTER PROBLEM THAT TRIGGERS THE ANTI-THEFT SYSTEM EVERY TIME HE OPENS THE DOORS, WHICH CAUSE ALL THE POWER BUTTONS INSIDE THE VEHICLE NOT TO FUNCTION.

NHTSA ID
10485602
Incident
Nov 1, 2012
ElectricalVisibility
Filed Oct 6, 2012

IN THE END OF AUGUST THE POWER WINDOWS STOPPED WORKING IN OUR ODYSSEY. WHEN I DROPPED THE CAR OFF AT THE DEALER TO FIX THE WINDOWS, THE ALARM SYSTEM DID NOT RECOGNIZE THE KEYS AND WENT OFF EVERY TIME THE DEALER TRIED TO OPEN THE DOOR. I BROUGHT IN MY WIFE'S SET OF KEYS TO SEE IF THAT WOULD RESOLVE THE ISSUE BUT IT DID NOT. THE CAR NO LONGER RECOGNIZES EITHER KEY OR KEY FOB AND TRIGGERS THE ALARM WHENEVER I UNLOCK AND OPEN THE DOORS. ADDITIONALLY, THE UNLOCK BUTTON ON THE KEY FOB SOMEHOW CAUSED MY WINDOWS TO GO DOWN SO THEY ARE STUCK DOWN AND NO BUTTONS, DOOR LOCKS, WINDOWS, POWER SLIDING DOORS, OR REAR TAILGATE LIFT WORK. HONDA DOES NOT KNOW WHAT THE PROBLEM IS AND HAS BEEN RESISTANT TO HELP FIX THE CA DESPITE IT STILL BEING UNDER WARRANTY. *TR

NHTSA ID
10478831
Incident
Aug 30, 2012
Mileage
27,300 mi

Higher-selling and older vehicles accumulate more reports. Counts are not failure rates and are not directly comparable between vehicles that sold in very different numbers.

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