Body & structureSuspension
Filed Jun 5, 2024
Strut mounts are very rusty, the Chrysler recommended repair could not be done, due to extensive rust around the strut tower. This is confirmed by many other owners of this year and generation of vehicle. The vehicle is is good shape except for this and the problem was caused by a manufacturing defect which allowed rusting in the strut towers. This problem started happening approximately when it was just 10 years old or less and got worse and worse over the years. I have not driven it for many years because it seems very unsafe.
- NHTSA ID
- 11592632
- Incident
- Jun 1, 2018
Interior & seats
Filed Nov 2, 2019
THE HEATED SEAT ON THE DRIVER SIDE WAS HEATING UP SO HOT THAT IT WOULD BURN YOUR BOTTOM. NOW IT HAS SEIZES TO WORK EVEN WITH REPAIRS.
- NHTSA ID
- 11277691
- Incident
- Nov 2, 2019
- Mileage
- 205,000 mi
AirbagsDriver assistance
Filed Sep 19, 2019
AIR BAG LIGHT CONSTANTLY ON, NO HORN NO CRUISE CONTROL NO RADIO CONTROL. WENT TO DEALER FOR RECALL ON AIRBAG STEERING WHEEL CLOCK SPRING AND WAS TOLD I WOULD HAVE TO PAY FOR DIAGNOSTIC AND ALSO PAY FOR PART " IN CASE IT WAS NOT COVERED. THIS IS NOT HOW A SAFETY RECALL SHOULD BE PERFORMED TO MY UNDERSTANDING
- NHTSA ID
- 11256627
- Incident
- Sep 16, 2019
- Mileage
- 135,025 mi
THERE IS AN KNOWN ISSUE WITH TOWN&COUNTRY VAN B/T CERTAIN YEARS. I HAVE A 1999. WHEN WATER SPLASHES FROM THE ROAD OR RUNS OFF THE VEHICLE, THE WATER LANDS ON THE SERPENTINE BELT, AND CAUSES THE BELT TO SLIDE OFF. WHEN THE BELT SLIDES OFF, THE POWER STEERING FAILS TO SUCH A DEGREE THAT IT MAKES THE VEHICLE DIFFICULT TO MAINTAIN CONTROL. THERE IS A PATCH THAT CHRYSLER ISSUED, BUT NOT DID NOT DEEM IT A RECALL. I BELIEVE THIS ISSUE IS BAD ENOUGH THAT IT COULD CAUSE SIGNIFICANT PROBLEMS. I'VE HAD THIS HAPPEN SEVERAL TIMES. NOT DRIVING THROUGH PUDDLES, BUT JUST HAVING A WET ROAD CAN CAUSE (AND HAS CAUSED) AN ISSUE. THE FIX IS 400+$, WHICH IS RIDICULOUS CONSIDERING THAT THIS IS A KNOWN ISSUE THAT CHRYSLER CREATED A FIX FOR, BUT WON'T RECALL. I'VE REPLACED EVERY BELT, TENSIONER, PULLEY ETC, AND THE MECHANIC FRANKLY SAID ITS A KNOWN PROBLEM WITH CERTAIN YEARS OF TOWN & COUNTY.
- NHTSA ID
- 11232781
- Incident
- Jul 6, 2019
- Mileage
- 140,000 mi
Electrical
Filed Oct 2, 2016
MY PROBLEM IS IN THE IGNITION SWITCH, WHICH IS AFFECTING THE AIR CONDITIONER AND BLINKERS , AT THE SAME TIME , I TESTED THE VAN WHILE IT WAS RUNNING I MOVED THE IGNITION KEY AND THE AIR CONDITIONING AND BLINKERS WOULD WORK. STARTED WELL VAN WAS STATIONARY IN MY DRIVEWAY 10/1/2016.
- NHTSA ID
- 10911026
- Incident
- Oct 1, 2016
Fuel system
Filed Sep 13, 2016
FUEL INJECTOR RAIL FAILURE. WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IF THERE WAS A RECALL ON THIS AND IF THE REPAIR IS COVERED UNDER A RECALL. GAS IS LEAKING FROM THE FUEL INJECTOR RAIL, AND VAN WAS CHUGGING. THANK YOU IN ADVANCE. [XXX] INFORMATION REDACTED PURSUANT TO THE FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT (FOIA), 5 U.S.C. 552(B)(6). *TR
- NHTSA ID
- 10906069
- Incident
- Sep 7, 2016
- Mileage
- 184,928 mi
Fuel system
Filed Aug 23, 2016
WHEN I WENT TO VISIT MY WIFE AT THE NURSING HOME WHERE SHE IS, AFTER I GOT IN MY VAN TO GO HOME I ONLY MADE IT A COUPLE MILES THE GAUGES WENT GOOFY THEN THE MOTOR QUIT, I HAD NO CLUE A RELATIVE OWNS A WRECKER SERVICE SO HE CAME AND TOWED ME HOME. THE NEXT DAY I TRIED TO START IT BUT NO LUCK, WHEN I FIRST GOT THE VAN IT DID SOMETHING JUST LIKE THIS SO I FIGURED IT COULD BE THE BRAIN SO I GOT ONE AND PUT IT IN, NOTHING SO WHILE TURNING THE ENGINE OVER I DIDN'T HEAR THE FUEL PUMP SO I BOUGHT A REPLACEMENT. AFTER GOING THROUGH ALL OF THAT IT STILL WOULD TURN BUT NOT START A MECHANIC CAME OUT TO LOOK AT IT AND SEE IF HE COULD FIGURE OUT WHY IT DIDN'T START AFTER LOOKING AT IT HE SAID THAT IT WAS PROBABLY THE FUEL SHUT OFF RELAY, THAT'S WHERE IT IS,I NEED TO FIND WHERE THE CUTOFF RELAY IS LOCATED SO I CAN RESET IT.
- NHTSA ID
- 10897839
- Incident
- Jul 12, 2016
Suspension
Filed Jul 29, 2016
WANTED TO TRADE VAN IN AND THEY TOLD ME DO TO SAFETY FACTORS COULD NOT TAKE IN ON A TRADE. SAID THAT THE RUST ON VAN UNDER CARRIAGE WAS SO BAD THAT MOTOR COULD FALL OUT AND IT WAS NOT WORTH TAKING IN ON A TRADE DO TO THIS PROBLEM
- NHTSA ID
- 10891744
- Incident
- Jul 20, 2016
- Mileage
- 270,000 mi
BrakesEnginePowertrain (other)
Filed Jul 29, 2016
I WAS DRIVING ON STREET AND BRAKES WENT OUT. DID NOT HIT ANYONE BUT HAD TO DRIVE TO SHOP DO TO NO BRAKES VERY SLOW. BRAKES LINE RUSTED OUT AND HAD TO REPLACE BRAKE LINES USED EMERGENCY BRAKE TO STOP AND GO. ALL PARTS OF VAN IS RUSTING FRAME THAT HOLDS MOTOR IN RUSTED AND CAN NOT TRADE IN DO TO DEALER SAID IT IS A SAFETY FACTOR AND IT CAN NOT BE REPAIRED DO TO RUST.
- NHTSA ID
- 10891743
- Incident
- Jul 6, 2015
- Mileage
- 270,000 mi
Electrical
Filed Dec 22, 2015
TL* THE CONTACT OWNS A 1999 CHRYSLER TOWN AND COUNTRY. ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS, THE INSTRUMENT PANEL FAILED TO REMAIN ILLUMINATED. THE VEHICLE WAS NOT DAGNOSED OR REPAIRED. THE MANUFACTURER WAS NOT NOTIFIED OF THE FAILURE. THE APPROXIMATE FAILURE MILEAGE WAS 148,000.
- NHTSA ID
- 10811657
- Incident
- Nov 23, 2015
- Mileage
- 148,000 mi
Electrical
Filed Oct 27, 2015
INSTRUMENT CLUSTER AND SPEDOMETER HAVE FAILED. WHILE DRIVING MY ENTIRE DASH WOULD TURN OFF. NO SPEDOMETER, NO TACHOMETER, NO FUEL, NOTHING. AFTER A MONTH OR TWO OF THIS HAPPENING ON AND OFF, MY SPEDOMETER STARTED GETTING INACCURATE. IT'S NOW AT ABOUT 37MPH OFF. WHEN I TURN MY CAR OFF, THE SPEDOMETER GOES TO 0 (OR BELOW 0). WHEN I TURN MY KEY TO THE RIGHT, IT GOES TO 37MPH. WHILE I'M DRIVING 20, IT SHOWS 57MPH. IF I'M DRIVING 60MPH, IT SHOWS 97MPH. AFTER PERFORMING A GOOGLE SEARCH AND READING THROUGH SOME TECH BLOGS, WE'VE FOUND THIS IS A VERY COMMON PROBLEM WITH THE INSTRUMENT CLUSTER AND A BROKEN CIRCUIT THAT NEEDS TO BE SOLDERED. WE DID THAT AND HAVE NOT HAD THE PROBLEM WITH MY DASH INSTRUMENTS TURNING OFF SINCE THEN, BUT THE SPEDOMETER IS STILL NOT ACCURATE. WE TRIED DOING A SPEDOMETER RESET WHICH DID NOT RESOLVE THE ISSUE. I FEEL LIKE THERE ARE SO MANY PEOPLE THAT HAVE REPORTED THIS PROBLEM, AND IT IS UNSAFE FOR YOUR INSTRUMENT CLUSTER TO NOT BE FULLY FUNCTIONAL - THAT THIS SHOULD BE A RECALL. I KNOW PEOPLE WITH JEEPS AND DODGE VEHICLES THAT HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM. I AM SHOCKED THAT THIS IS NOT A RECALLED ISSUE AND CAN'T WAIT TO SELL THIS. I DEFINITELY WON'T MAKE THE MISTAKE OF PURCHASING JEEP/DODGE/CRYSLER AGAIN IF YOU'RE UNWILLING TO REPAIR THIS DEFECT FOR YOUR CUSTOMERS AT NO COST. AFTER A BRIEF SEARCH, I SEE NHTSA ID NUMBERS: 10253857, 10469302, 10192636, 10093722, 10195148, 10203097, 10093722, 10137954, AND 10062117 FILED WITH SAME OR SIMILAR PROBLEMS AS WELL AS ALL THE INFO I'VE FOUND ONLINE.
- NHTSA ID
- 10786491
- Incident
- Jul 3, 2015
- Mileage
- 95,000 mi
AirbagsElectrical
Filed Oct 19, 2015
TL* THE CONTACT OWNS A 2009 CHRYSLER TOWN AND COUNTRY. THE CONTACT RECEIVED NOTIFICATION OF NHTSA CAMPAIGN NUMBER: 14V373000 (AIR BAGS, ELECTRICAL SYSTEM); HOWEVER, THE PART TO DO THE REPAIR WAS UNAVAILABLE. THE CONTACT STATED THAT THE MANUFACTURER EXCEEDED A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF TIME FOR THE RECALL REPAIR. THE MANUFACTURER WAS NOT NOTIFIED OF THE ISSUE. THE VIN WAS UNKNOWN. THE CONTACT HAD NOT EXPERIENCED A FAILURE.
- NHTSA ID
- 10783457
- Incident
- Jun 8, 2015
ElectricalExterior lighting
Filed Oct 8, 2015
TL* THE CONTACT OWNS A 1999 CHRYSLER TOWN AND COUNTRY. ON OCCASION, THE VEHICLE WOULD NOT START. ALSO, WHILE DRIVING, THE HEADLIGHTS WOULD SUDDENLY SHUT OFF. FOR EACH FAILURE, THE CONTACT INDICATED THAT BANGING ON THE DASHBOARD WOULD RESOLVE THE ISSUES. THE VEHICLE WAS TAKEN TO THE DEALER ON MULTIPLE OCCASIONS AND THE BATTERY, STARTER, AND COMPUTER WERE REPLACED; HOWEVER, THE FAILURES CONTINUED. THE MANUFACTURER WAS NOTIFIED. THE VIN WAS NOT AVAILABLE. THE FAILURE MILEAGE WAS 65,000.
- NHTSA ID
- 10780707
- Incident
- Oct 1, 2005
- Mileage
- 65,000 mi
TL* THE CONTACT OWNED A 1999 CHRYSLER TOWN AND COUNTRY. THE CONTACT STATED THAT SMOKE EMITTED UNDER THE HOOD. WITHIN MINUTES, THE HOOD CAUGHT FIRE. THE FIRE DEPARTMENT WAS NOTIFIED. THE VEHICLE WAS DESTROYED. THE MANUFACTURER WAS MADE AWARE OF THE FAILURE. THE FAILURE MILEAGE WAS 34,000.
- NHTSA ID
- 10722836
- Incident
- Jan 14, 2015
- Mileage
- 34,000 mi
Fuel system
Filed Feb 16, 2015
LEAKING FUEL FROM FUEL RAIL IN FRONT OF MANIFOLD. THERE IS A VALID RECALL, YET CHRYSLER WOULD NOT COVER TOWING VEHICLE EVEN THOUGH THERE IS A DANGEROUS SITUATION WITH FUEL LEAKING ONTO THE ENGINE. I VERY MUCH BELIEVE THAT CHRYSLER SHOULD COVER TOWING. *TR
- NHTSA ID
- 10683677
- Incident
- Feb 16, 2015
- Mileage
- 195,354 mi
Suspension
Filed Jan 21, 2015
THERE WAS NO INCIDENT YET. THE DRIVER'S SIDE UPPER STRUT BRACKET IS RUSTED ABOUT A 1/4 OF THE TOP SIDE. DON'T KNOW WHERE THE MOISTURE COULD HAVE COME FROM? THE SEALS ABOVE THAT AREA SEEM OK. COULDN'T FIND ANY PAST RECALLS FOR THIS ISSUE BUT, THE PASSENGER'S SIDE IS JUST FINE. AT THIS POINT THE INSURANCE COMPANY WON'T COVER FIXING IT. AND AM NOT SURE WHAT COULD BE DONE? THIS IS MY MOM'S CAR AND THE INFORMATION BELOW IS MINE. *TR
- NHTSA ID
- 10677035
- Incident
- Jan 20, 2015
- Mileage
- 125,000 mi
I WAS DRIVING DOWN THE ROAD DOWN THE ROAD ON 11/16/14 AND THE SERPENTINE BELT CAM OFF GOING DOWN THE ROAD AND THE HEAD LIGHTS WENT DIM AND THE ENGINE WAS GOING TO OVER HEAT AND THE STEERING WHEEL WAS VERY HARD TO TURN SO I HAD TO PULL OVER AND PUT THE BELT BACK ON AND EVERY TIME I GO DOWN THE ROAD AND THE SERPENTINE BELT GETS WET IT COME OFF AND I HAVE TO FIX IT EVERY TIME I HIT A LITTLE WATER PUDDLE IT COME OFF AND I PUT ALL NEW PARTS AND I LOOKED ONLINE TO SEE IF ANY ONE HAD THE SAME PROBLEM LIKE I HAVE AND I SEEN MORE THEN 9,000 COMPLAINTS AND IM TIRED OF THE PROBLEM IT CAME OFF 10 TIMES THIS YEAR AND THE DEALER SAID THAT IS MISSED ALIGN EVEN THE MECHANICS SAID IT IS A COMMON PROBLEM. SO IF ANY ONE CAN DO SOME THING ABOUT IT PLEASE DO SOME THING BEFORE SOME ONE GETS VERY BAD HURT. *TR
- NHTSA ID
- 10655332
- Incident
- Nov 16, 2014
TL* THE CONTACT OWNS A 1999 CHRYSLER TOWN AND COUNTRY. WHEN THE CONTACT ATTEMPTED TO START THE VEHICLE, THE ENGINE STALLED. THE FAILURE OCCURRED ON NUMEROUS OCCASIONS. THE VEHICLE WAS TAKEN TO AN INDEPENDENT MECHANIC, BUT THE CAUSE OF THE FAILURE COULD NOT BE DIAGNOSED. THE VEHICLE WAS NOT REPAIRED. THE MANUFACTURER WAS NOT NOTIFIED. THE APPROXIMATE FAILURE MILEAGE WAS 120,000.
- NHTSA ID
- 10639272
- Incident
- Sep 26, 2012
- Mileage
- 120,000 mi
Electrical
Filed Jul 30, 2014
OUR VEHICLE HAS FAILED TO START ON 3 OCCASIONS. THE FIRST TIME WE HAD IT TOWED TO THE CHRYSLER DEALERSHIP. IT STARTED RIGHT UP FOR THEM AND THEY COULD FIND ANYTHING WRONG. IF YOU GOOGLE 1999 CHRYSLER TOWN & COUNTRY YOU WILL FIND MANY COMPLAINTS AND FEW SOLUTIONS. ONE PARTY HAS SPENT OVER $3000 AT THE DEALERSHIP AND STILL HAS THE PROBLEM. I AM NOT A MECHANIC BUT MY GUESS WOULD BE THERE IS A LOOSE SOLDERING JOINT ON ONE OF THE BOARDS. IT HAS TO DO WITH THE ALARM. THE CAR THINKS ITS BEING STOLEN SO IT CUTS THE ENGINE OFF. WHAT HAS WORKED FOR US (BELIEVE IT OR NOT) IS A GOOD HARD BANG ON THE TOP OF THE DASH. I AM FEARFUL OF DRIVING. I DON'T WANT TO GET STRANDED. THIS SHOULD DEFINITELY BE A RECALL AND CHRYSLER NEEDS TO ADDRESS THIS ISSUE. THE ALARM SET LIGHT COMES ON EACH TIME, SOMETIMES EVEN WHILE DRIVING! WE SHOULDN'T HAVE TO CROSS OUR FINGERS EVERY TIME WE GET IN THE VAN! CAN YOU TELL US HOW TO DISCONNECT THE ALARM SYSTEM? I THINK THAT WOULD BE A BAND-AIDE FIX TO THE PROBLEM BUT WE HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO FIND ANY INSTRUCTIONS. THE PROBLEM FIRST STARTED WITH THE HORN BLOWING FOR THE ALARM SPORADICALLY AND FOR NO REASON. WE TOOK OUT THE HORN FUSE TO PREVENT FURTHER INSTANCES WHICH POSES A SAFETY HAZARD. ITS OLD BUT LOW MILES AND SHOULD NOT HAVE THESE ISSUES. *TR
- NHTSA ID
- 10617666
- Incident
- Feb 1, 2014
- Mileage
- 58,000 mi
Electrical
Filed Jul 25, 2014
I PURCHASED THIS VEHICLE IN AUGUST OF 2013 AND HAVE BEEN HAVING ONGOING PROBLEMS WITH THE ALARM SYSTEM. IT SHUTS THE VEHICLE DOWN AND WON'T LET IT START AGAIN FOR ANYWHERE FROM DAYS TO WEEKS LATER. I HAVE HAD A NEW COMPUTER PUT IN AND FLASHED BY THE CHRYSLER GARAGE BUT NOTHING AND NOONE SEEMS TO BE ABLE TO FIX THIS PROBLEM. IT MAKES THE VEHICLE TOTALLY UNRELIABLE AND A SAFETY HAZARD TO GET STRANDED ANYTIME. I HAVE BEEN DUMPING MONEY INTO THE VEHICLE FOR OVER A YEAR TRYING TO GET IT FIXED WITH NO LUCK. THIS SHOULD BE A RECALL ITEM THAT IS ADDRESSED AT THE EXPENSE OF THE COMPANY. THEY KNOW THIS PROBLEM EXISTS. *TR
- NHTSA ID
- 10616351
- Incident
- Aug 28, 2013
- Mileage
- 122,100 mi
WHILE DRIVING VEHICLE TO AN APPT MY DAUGHTER STARTED COMPLAINING OF HER FEET BECOMING VERY HOT. SHE WAS SITTING IN THE PASSENGER FRONT SEAT, THERE WAS A BURNING ODOR. I PULLED OVER AND LOOKED UNDERNEATH THE VEHICLE, THE EXHAUST WAS CHERRY RED AND THERE WERE FLAMES NEAR CATALYTIC CONVERTER AREA. I HAD TO HAVE THE VAN TOWED HOME. *TR
- NHTSA ID
- 10616348
- Incident
- Aug 28, 2013
- Mileage
- 122,140 mi
EngineSteering
Filed May 27, 2014
DRIVING VAN IN THE RAIN, NOTICED THE STEERING BECAME EXTREMELY DIFFICULT. I ALSO NOTICED THAT THE LIGHTS AD POWER STARTED TO DIM. IN THAT CASE, I PULLED OVER TO SEE WHAT THE ISSUE WAS. I NOTICED THAT THE SERPENTINE BELT HAD COME OFF THE PULLEYS. I HAVE HAD OTHER MINI-VANS ESPECIALLY DODGES AND HAVE NOTICED THEY ALL SEEM TO DO THE SAME THING WHEN IT COMES TO RAIN, SNOW, ICE. YOU WOULD THINK THEY WOULD RESOLVE THIS ISSUE AS IT IS A SAFETY ISSUE. I'VE LEARNED FROM MY PREVIOUS DODGE CARAVANS HOW TO PUT THE SERPENTINE BELT BACK ON, BUT IT REALLY IS A SAFETY ISSUE AS THIS COULD LEAVE YOU STRANDED AND VERY COSTLY (MONEY AND TIME WISE) IF YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO PUT IT BACK ON. AS A CONSUMER, I WILL NOT BE PURCHASING ANOTHER DODGE OR CHRYSLER MINIVAN AGAIN DUE TO THIS ISSUE! *TR
- NHTSA ID
- 10594450
- Incident
- May 26, 2014
- Mileage
- 170,000 mi
TL* THE CONTACT OWNS A 1999 TOWN AND COUNTRY. THE CONTACT STATED THAT WHILE DRIVING VARIOUS SPEEDS, THE VEHICLE BELT BECAME DETACHED FROM THE PULLEY SYSTEM, CAUSING THE POWER STEERING AND BRAKES TO FAIL. THE CONTACT STATED HE WOULD HAVE TO RECONNECT THE BELT WHENEVER IT BECAME DETACHED. THE FAILURE WAS RECURRING. THE VEHICLE WAS TAKEN TO AN INDEPENDENT MECHANIC, WHO DIAGNOSED THAT THE TENSION PULLEY SYSTEM NEEDED TO BE REPLACED. THE VEHICLE WAS REPAIRED BUT THE FAILURE RECURRED. THE MANUFACTURER WAS MADE AWARE OF THE PROBLEM. THE VIN WAS NOT AVAILABLE. THE APPROXIMATE FAILURE MILEAGE WAS 135,000. *TR
- NHTSA ID
- 10555508
- Incident
- Dec 9, 2013
- Mileage
- 135,000 mi
TL* THE CONTACT OWNS A 1999 CHRYSLER TOWN AND COUNTRY. THE CONTACT STATED THAT WHILE DRIVING AT VARIOUS SPEEDS, THE VEHICLE WOULD STALL WITHOUT WARNING. THE CONTACT MENTIONED THAT THE VEHICLE WOULD IMMEDIATELY RESTART AFTER THE FAILURE BUT ALL THE GAUGES ON THE INSTRUMENT PANEL WOULD REMAIN OFF. THE VEHICLE WAS NOT TAKEN TO THE DEALER. THE MANUFACTURER WAS NOT MADE AWARE OF THE FAILURE. THE VEHICLE WAS NOT REPAIRED. THE VIN WAS NOT AVAILABLE. THE FAILURE MILEAGE WAS 119,000 AND THE CURRENT MILEAGE WAS 178,000.
- NHTSA ID
- 10533824
- Incident
- Aug 8, 2012
- Mileage
- 119,000 mi
Steering
Filed Jul 24, 2013
TL* THE CONTACT OWNS A 1999 CHRYSLER TOWN AND COUNTRY. THE CONTACT WAS DRIVING IN RAINY WEATHER AT APPROXIMATELY 55 MPH WHEN SHE TRAVELED OVER A PUDDLE OF WATER AND THE STEERING WHEEL SEIZED. THE BATTERY WARNING LIGHT AND THE KEY ICON ILLUMINATED. THE STEERING WHEEL BECAME EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO TURN AND THE CONTACT MOVED TO THE SIDE OF THE ROAD WHERE THE VEHICLE WAS TOWED TO THE CONTACT'S RESIDENCE. THE VEHICLE WAS NEITHER DIAGNOSED NOR REPAIRED. THE MANUFACTURER WAS NOT NOTIFIED OF THE PROBLEM. THE APPROXIMATE FAILURE MILEAGE WAS 99,000.
- NHTSA ID
- 10531672
- Incident
- Jul 20, 2013
- Mileage
- 99,000 mi
Higher-selling and older vehicles accumulate more reports. Counts are not failure rates and are not directly comparable between vehicles that sold in very different numbers.